Originally posted by 楚人 at 2004-2-19 16:08:
蒋介石之所以能够当上常任理事国,这其中也是有许多故事的,你看见过那一个常任理事国会有一个针对他的雅尔塔协议,作为战胜国却失去蒙古,琉球,实际上的东北。。。
在1945年的时候把实际上西藏,新疆还是处于某种半自治状态,在中央政府的统治之外。
有时候同一件事情,同样一些资料,随着年纪的增长,看法也就会不一样,我敢说坛子上某些人的年纪不会超过27岁,在国内工作年限不会超过5年。

新疆和东北都是因为苏联人在搞鬼,所以蒋介石到了台湾以后大骂中共卖国,出卖国家主权。
如果年纪超过了27岁工作年限超过5年的人还不清楚这些事情,可以去看看书。biggrin.gi

[ Last edited by jiejiedog on 2004-2-19 at 20:12 ]

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[img]http://splash-china.de/1.gif[/img]YY

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Originally posted by 土耳其老头 at 2004-2-19 19:04:
倒是很有同感,但觉得后面的结论有些不恰当。

其实一个人17岁的看法到27岁时可能会彻底改变,而37岁时可能
又会有不同,这些一年一年,下去我们什么时候才能去评价历史
人物呢?

我就算和比我小十岁的人谈 ...

如果从畅所欲言的角度来说是这样. 但如果想把一个论题深入下去,参与者的年龄也很重要.

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Originally posted by Flea at 2004-2-19 19:19:
如果从畅所欲言的角度来说是这样. 但如果想把一个论题深入下去,参与者的年龄也很重要.

我突然又有了年青的感觉了:)

话题要多深入呢?好像没有年龄好划分

经历未必全是件好事,当局者迷,你亲身经历过倒可能会影响你看问题的角度。所以历史总是好几百年以后才说得清。

多大年龄才适合这个话题呢?大家都是纸上谈兵,就算你认为自己到了这样
可以深入谈论的年龄,但可否了解那些历史人物的背景?

比如谈毛泽东,就算你经历过他的年代,你可否了解他的背景?你是否和
他有过个人交往?你是否处在过他的位置面对他曾经做过的问题?。。。
说起来,这些都会影响把一个话题深入下去的条件,那我们是不是不能
去谈了吗?

同样的话题,北京的党史研究所在谈,台湾的陆管会在谈,美国的
CIA在谈,中国每所中学的课间时也可能会涉及,我们人在德国的论坛
也在讨论,深入不深入有多重要?

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Originally posted by Flea at 2004-2-19 20:19:
如果从畅所欲言的角度来说是这样. 但如果想把一个论题深入下去,参与者的年龄也很重要.

讨论只要持之有故,言之成理,不让别人觉得内容空洞就行。能从对方发言中得到一些新的信息就行。
年龄?吃了一辈子白饭庸庸碌碌一生的人包括么?

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Originally posted by 土耳其老头 at 2004-2-19 19:29:
我突然又有了年青的感觉了:)

话题要多深入呢?好像没有年龄好划分

经历未必全是件好事,当局者迷,你亲身经历过倒可能会影响你看问题的角度。所以历史总是好几百年以后才说得清。

多大年龄才适合这个话 ...

这又回到我前面的观点. 不过话说回来, 这里本来也不适合讨论什么深入的话题. 好了, 就此打住.

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Originally posted by jiejiedog at 2004-2-19 15:33:
从长远角度来说,中国肯定是美国的遏制对象,这大家都知道。...


不光是长远角度的问题,也未必大家都知道.

过去美国奉行的不是遏制中国的政策么? 朝鲜战争不是遏制的一种方式么?

向台湾省出售武器不是遏制么?<与台湾关系法>针对的是外星人么?

说到现在, 欧盟提议解除对华军售, 美国又是抗议又是阻挠, 这也不是遏制么?

上面是我们看到的现象,美国人自己怎么说的呢? 我引一段美国的图书广告, 作者不是一般的老百姓,而是能够影响美国政策的政界人士. Richard Perle是美国防务问题专家, David Frum曾任小布什的文胆(演讲词撰写人)"邪恶轴心"一词乃此公首创. 文章最后一段是<华盛顿邮报>对Richard Perle的吹捧, 遭个报纸好象也不是街头小报.

作者认为美国绝不能现在就停止反恐战争, 嘿嘿, 阿富汗打垮了, 伊拉克也占领了, 下一个是谁呢?

我提请各位注意划线的句子.  作者说:"美国还谈不上脱离危险:伊斯兰恐怖主义远未结束,北韩危机还在继续,中国仍然怀有的侵略野心不仅危胁到台湾,也危胁到美国.America is by no means out of danger: the threat of Islamic terrorism is far from ended, the crisis with North Korea continues, and China still harbors aggressive ambitions that threaten not only Taiwan, but the United States"  翻的不太通顺,望高手斧正.

这里的话语还有什么不明确的吗?

中国能够危胁到美国吗? -------------"欲加之罪,何患无词!"

注意该书的题目<终止邪恶:如何打赢反恐战争>.

附原文, 参见

http://www.nrbookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6425


From David Frum and Richard Perle: How to conquer complacency and defeatism - and recover the will to win the war on terror            
          Printer Friendly Version

What must we do to make the world safe again -- to defend Americans at home and abroad? An End to Evil: How to Win the War on Terrorism gives you the answer from two shrewd and informed Washington insiders: David Frum, former speechwriter for President Bush and bestselling author of The Right Man, and Richard Perle, the former assistant secretary of defense and one of the most influential and respected foreign policy leaders in Washington.

Frum and Perle are unafraid to speak forthrightly about troubling signs that important sectors of the government -- including figures at the highest levels of the Bush administration -- are getting cold feet about continuing on to victory in the war on terror. They detail how the pressure to end anti-terror efforts is now coming from all sides: from a military whose leaders are suspicious of the changes that are necessary to confront properly the changing global situation; from intelligence agencies hopelessly mired in bureaucracy; and from politically correct American diplomats who value dinner and drinks with their foreign colleagues more highly than the national security interests of their own country.

An End to Evil also makes it clear that ending the war on terror now would be an unmitigated disaster for our nation. Frum and Perle provide a detailed, candid account of America's continuing vulnerabilities. They provide trenchantly presented and persuasive evidence that despite victories in Afghanistan and Iraq, America is by no means out of danger: the threat of Islamic terrorism is far from ended, the crisis with North Korea continues, and China still harbors aggressive ambitions that threaten not only Taiwan, but the United States.

Perle and Frum also include a bold, practical program to defend America and to achieve final and decisive victory in the war on terror. Here is a blueprint for Washington policy makers, as well as an enlightening series of insights for every patriotic citizen into the threats facing America today and how we must meet them. An End to Evil will define the conservative point of view on foreign policy for a new generation -- and shape the agenda for the 2004 election and beyond. Frum and Perle reveal:

    * Why submitting to the authority of the United Nations could result in serious increases in threats to our national security

    * France and Saudi Arabia: allies or adversaries? Why it would be prudent for the United States to treat these nations as rivals and perhaps even enemies in the war on terror

    * Why the United States must take decisive action to support the overthrow of the terrorist mullahs of Iran -- now, before it's too late

    * The terrorist regime of Syria: what America's posture toward it should be

    * How the CIA and FBI have completely bungled counter-terrorism initiatives thus far -- and why both organizations need to be radically reorganized in order to face the terrorist threat effectively

    * The roots of Muslim rage: why they're not to be found in U.S. policies toward the Middle East, but in Islam itself

    * Bill Clinton: how his administration piled restrictions on the CIA and FBI that hamstrung their anti-terror efforts -- contrary to his recent claims to have been obsessed with the terrorist threat

    * How Clinton and a whole panoply of weak-willed leaders who couldn't muster the nerve for decisive action doomed our anti-terrorism efforts of the 1990s to failure

    * The Israeli-Arab dispute: why virtually everything you read about it in the newspapers is dead wrong

    * How fears of renewed "McCarthyism" have hampered our efforts to combat Islamic terrorism

    * The strange alliance that has sprung up since 9/11 between the CIA and the Syrian secret service

    * Mike Hawash: the strange case of this "average American" who sided with Islamic terrorists, and the lessons it teaches us about what we must do to win the war on terror

    * Why the CIA insisted for years that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden detested each other and would never work together -- despite steadily growing evidence to the contrary

    * The State Department: how it cunningly manipulates foreign policy, often at cross purposes with the wishes of the President

    * The crackdown on terror-supporting Islamic charities: why it is a good move, but it isn't enough

    * How the "experts" on Iran have allowed their ideology to run roughshod over the facts, thereby endangering all Americans

    * The astonishing extent to which extremist attitudes are found even among American Muslims -- and the hard steps we must take to combat them

    * Why we must abandon the illusion that a Palestinian state will contribute in any important way to American security

    * Why we must tighten immigration controls and security at home, and how we can accomplish these tasks now

    * The hysteria over the Patriot Act: why it is largely baseless
    * North Korea: what America must do if negotiations fail

    * The next great terror threat: where it will come from, and what we must do to protect ourselves

    * Why, despite the seriousness of the terrorist threat, the United States may be a tougher target than it seems to be

"A not completely crazy case can be made that the most influential thinker in the foreign-policy apparatus of the Administration of George W. Bush during its first two years was not one of the familiar members of the gold-shielded Praetorian Guard -- not Dick Cheney or Colin Powell, not Condi or Rummy, not Tenet or Wolfowitz -- but, rather, a forty-two-year-old Canadian named David Frum." -- Hendrik Hertzberg, The New Yorker

"[Richard Perle is the] intellectual guru of the hard-line neoconservative movement in foreign policy. . . . [He] has profound influence over Bush policies and officials in the competition for the hearts of the president and his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice." -- Dana Milbank, Washington Post

[ Last edited by idiotor on 2004-2-20 at 13:07 ]

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Originally posted by jiejiedog at 2004-2-19 16:33:


从长远角度来说,中国肯定是美国的遏制对象,这大家都知道。但正如邱吉尔所说的,只有永恒的利益。当时世界上是美苏争霸,中国算是一个地区大国,也就是美苏都要竭力争取的对象。如果我们当时不是那么立场鲜明,一边倒,而是同时打交道,可以获得更大的发展机会。很可能台湾问题也能早日得到解决。
所谓枪打出头鸟,70。80年代世界上有苏联在,美国和当时邓小平领导下的中国关系一片火热,不仅是经济上的,还有政治上的,美国帮助下中国的国际地位大大提高,活动空间不断扩大。同时苏联也不得不想方设法与中国改善关系。
但是到了90年,苏联解体以后,中国就上了第一线。美国现在遏制中国是必然的。
我想说的是:1950年的中国,真的只有这一个选择么?当时苏联需要中国,美国也需要中国,但中国过早的出掉了自己的A炸弹,剩下一个小3。本来前面还有苏联这只大鸟趟着,毛却让羽翼未丰的中国也当出头鸟,反而由主动变被动。

[ Last edited by jiejiedog on 2004-2-20 at 14:12 ]

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其实大家没必要为一个已死并且和自己没关系的人争吵 而且你们的话题好象太大太理想了 我看这种话题说不出什么结果来的 不如我给你们出个话题你们讨论一番 如果没记错的话我记得弗罗意德讲过 人的一切行为原动力都来自广义上的性 你们讨论了这么多 可见原动力一定很强大 力比多的精神能量也一定被注射的很足 用来搞女人那个妞一定被你们搞死 现在你们可以讨论一下 如何理论联系实际 解释一下 你们这么热诚的回帖和广义上的性是怎么联系起来的

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比如说我开个头 我是这么理解的 一个属于成熟棋的男人有强烈的繁衍下代的愿望 但因为大家都在异乡有繁重的学业 我前几天看到报纸说现在中国男女比列失衡 成熟男女比列大概在
120比100这个水平上 再加上德国男多女少 扣除异性中自己觉的外行不满意的那部分 我估计交配竞争很激烈 你的可选择范围一般在6:1这个水平上 就是说你见到的任何理想的成熟异性同时面对着5个竞争对手 竞争之大可想而知  这个时候欲望得不到满足不的不被转移 而无法转移的部分就进入潜意识 争夺交配权的战争从直接的性行为转移到以控制繁衍所依赖的物质知原上 而毛无疑是成功典型人物 通过对毛的讨论可以适当满足潜意识中的欲望 大家不要小看潜意识的力量

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